#anti jancy

[clarkegriffins]

do u ever stop to think about this whole love triangle discourse and end up laughing bc there shouldn't be a discourse to begin with? like one boy wants nancy in his life and says that she's the most important part and the other boy looks like he's two seconds away from being put out of his misery because of his relationship with nancy to the point he's ghosting her and she thinks he's cheating. also do u ever think about how both of these boys talks about nancy? how they describe her? and the reasons they love her? how they see her?

first we have jonathan saying this:

first of all, i love his lack of energy go girl give us nothing (why he looks like he wants to d word, ur literally talking about ur girlfriend 😭) so, that's him saying all the reasons he loves her, and ofc we know that nancy is like that but why he's talking about her work ethic and not about her, like u should all read this post about how much nancy cares about other people and how being a reporter allows her to listen to other people's stories and help them, but jonathan only talks about that, work work work, how she behaves in work, how she is ambitious at work which we know she is, that's not a bad thing at all, i love how determined she is, how she works hard for that, it's actually one of my favorite traits of nancy, but i don't see people (and jonathan) talking about what drives that ambition forward which is helping other people, now going back to jonathan's speech which is even more ridiculous when we watched s3, because according to him he loves how hardworking nancy is, and yet:

wait a second, drop the story? i thought you loved how she's never done a single thing halfway in her life? and then:

anyways, that doesn't sound like someone who loves all these things he listed in season 4, now moving forward to steve, i was talking before how jonathan only said things about nancy's work ethic and not about her and what drives her forward but can u believe that steve does that? and not the fully developed steve in season 4, no, the s1 steve, the one who still messed up from time to time

i think it's very refreshing to see someone describing nancy and acknowledging how caring she can be, how she worries about other people, how she wants to help people, and he sees that, and this isn't even a big speech bc good knows narrative wasn't at their side in s1-s2, it's just crazy to me how there's scenes of nancy being there for jonathan in awful times (when will was being possessed, she held his hand, she was there, and yet not a single thing about that, about how much she's caring and protective) it's just sad bc do u see how she describes him? "caring, compassionate, protective, never back down from what's right (only when he wants to lie to her countless times i guess)" how could he not do the same for her? THE nancy wheeler who stood in front of A CAR to protect him and her friends when billy was about to crush her, and you know this isn't just an issue with jonathan, i feel like this is an issue with the fandom too, i feel like the fandom only seems to care about that side of nancy, like her career is the only thing she cares about and nothing more, and that's just isn't nancy wheeler, but then again, she's one of the characters people misunderstand the most in st (just like her brother, i guess is the wheeler's curse) we have 14 year old mike wheeler listing how much he loves el on her bad days, on her good days, with her powers, without her power, for exactly who she is, and all jonathan can say about his girlfriend is "she works 👍"

[mynonclicheblog]

Nancy being targeted by the show's big bad specifically because she has unresolved trauma... the same trauma that's remained untouched and inert throughout her onscreen relationship with Jonathan... the same trauma that inherently links her to Steve, whom she's been growing closer to again, whom she's beginning to see in a warm, hopeful, renewed light... the same trauma she will presumably need to face in season 5 before taking down Vecna...

...and people still think J is the right choice? Like, narratively?

[ilovetwig]

I always think it's funny that people call Nancy dating Steve "forced conformity" because that's literally the first time we see Nancy doing something that SHE wants to do. Without anyone else telling her what to do. Like she's so excited about it, but she's also worried what people are going to think since people view her a certain way and by dating Steve, it goes against the image that people have of her. So she tries to hide the relationship and hide that part of herself from the world. But being with Steve is something SHE still wants to do!!

The real forced conformity is when she starts dating j*n because that is so much more aligned with what people expected from her. It's also because a lot of other people TOLD her to be with him because it's what THEY wanted to see from her. Honestly, why do you think she puts up with so much of the stuff that j*n does to her...she's literally trying to make things work because she thinks she has to make that relationship work since it's what OTHERS want from her.

[thestobingirlie]

you know what i think is so interesting about the “only love makes you that crazy dear” scene is that it actually perfectly encapsulates jancy’s relationship, but not in the romantic way some people take it and the way it was (i assume) intended.

because jonathan wasn’t acting out of love for nancy when he fought steve. he was acting out of love for will.

nancy getting slutshamed? jonathan wants to leave. steve insults him? jonathan wants to leave. steve insults his mother? will? jonathan goes berserk.

because ultimately the most important person to him will always be will. nancy and her feelings and dreams and desires will always come second to jonathan’s family.

and that’s perfectly summed up by some old lady that knows nothing about the situation. love does make jonathan go crazy. but not love for nancy.

[alwaysthequietones]

[huntingpeople-savingsam]

So I know I’ve made a bunch of points already but this one just occurred to me. At the end of season 1 (mentioned by Nancy is season 2) after the teens fight the Demogorgan, Nancy says she waits for Jonathan, and when he doesn’t give any indication she should be, Steve is there and they reconcile and get back together.

Now something about that I didn’t notice back when I first saw season 2 and am really putting together now— Jonathan is annoyed that Nancy didn’t wait for him when he needed time with his family after Will was saved. And it’s understandable that the Byers needed time after all that they went through in season 1, but Jonathan is annoyed with Nancy when she tells him she waited for him, “Yeah, like a month.” Meanwhile….. Nancy lost and is still mourning Barb! And Jonathan doesn’t acknowledge that at all when he complains about Nancy not waiting longer before getting back together with Steve.

But Steve was there for Nancy as much as he could be after they reconciled with Barb’s death. He obviously messed up by being unwilling to break the NDA they signed to tell the Hollands what happened to Barb and from Nancy’s perspective and place in mourning feels unsupported by him because of this but let’s rewind a little.

What we are left to infer between seasons 1 and 2 is:

Nancy AND Steve are having regular dinners with the Hollands

Although Steve is somewhat reluctant, he still goes and is a polite and pleasant dinner guest

Nancy and Steve seemed to have an overall good relationship until the anniversary of Barb’s death was creeping up

They were planning couples costumes, going to dinner with the Hollands, Steve spends Christmas at the Wheelers house, they drive to school together, Nancy has been helping Steve with his admissions essay, they’ve been talking about their future, etc.

And when I was thinking about all that they’d done together after season 1, I considered how it might’ve gone if Jon was in Steve’s place.

Would he have gone to regular dinners with the Hollands? Would he have wanted to expose the Lab and everything with the Upside Down if Will hadn’t gotten pulled back in?

Just how annoyed he was when he said she only waited a month for him— while he was reconciling with his lost brother…. And Nancy and the Hollands were still mourning Barb who had died?

I’m not faulting Jonathan for needing time with his family after everything that happened, of course he did.

And I’m not saying Steve was #1 Boyfriend of the year just because he went to dinner at the Hollands' with Nancy

But I am saying that Jon gave next to no thought about how badly Nancy was doing after they fought the Demogorgan in season 1. And while she was mourning and needed someone by her side to face the Hollands and lie to them while mourning with them, Steve was there while Jon wasn’t and I think Jon probably wouldn’t have been if Nance had waited longer for him.

It’s a theme you see throughout this show, a little bit before but especially after Nancy finally blows up and gives Steve the “thump on his head” that he later thanks her for— Steve is there, Jon isn’t.

[findafight]

In my on going journey to find a fic where Jonathan and Nancy at least talk through if not fight about how Jonathan has been treating and lying to her, and the way she was looking at/flirting with Steve in s4 I have found that, with the majority of these few fics, Jonathan’s choice to not tell Nancy is framed as him being noble or making a sacrifice for her. That he is breaking up with her to avoid making her miserable.

This is fascinating to me because while I now think they should for sure break up, I went into st4 pretty neutral on jancy, and thought everything Jonathan was saying was cowardly. I think HE thinks he’s making some noble sacrifice for Nancy’s sake, but he is not letting Nancy know about it nor is he letting her decide what she wants (to stay with him or to breakup) based on the actual facts of what Jonathan is doing/will go for college. He’s just. Letting her wonder why he’s being avoidant and distant, worrying about weather he loves her still (which is partly why her eyes wonder in s4).

Jonathan isn’t breaking up with her. The whole point of his rant to argyle is that he ISN’T breaking up with Nancy. He’s avoiding her so he doesn’t “trap” her. He’s already lied to her about applying to the university she thinks they’re going to together and so he barely talks to her and starts they are in a “slow-mo breakup”. It seems like he is avoiding talking to her in the twisted hope that she breaks up with him, because he cannot bear to do it. He’s already trapping her in this relationship he’s so terrified of.

Nancy does not know what is going on in his head. All she knows is her boyfriend is avoiding her. Cancelling plans or calls. To the point where she thinks there is a possibility (however small) he might be cheating on her. That’s not a good place for a relationship to be! Why would she think what he has done is admirable and self sacrificial when she has been suffering due to his actions and choices and the assumptions he’s made about their relationship and future without asking her? Why would she feel he did what he thought was right when she has been kept in the dark and lied to, openly, and mislead about their supposed shared future plans? When he was too nervous to talk to her plainly about his worries and fears so instead let them dictate how he treated her.

Jonathan cannot be open and honest to Nancy because of his fears, but also because of that same fear he doesn’t rip the bandaid off. He cannot be the one to breakup with Nancy because if he is, he is definitely the bad guy. If he breaks up with her, he shatters any semblance of the idea that he is in the right, that he is making a sacrifice by not letting Nancy hypothetically make one. And he doesn’t want to examine himself or his actions that would make it abundantly clear what he’s done wrong.

By forcing Nancy into a position where she is unsure of the strength of their relationship, where she doesn’t have all the information to actually make the decision about the future he assumes she will make (that she is actually unlikely to make) he is doing what he fears he would be if he was honest about college. Trapping her in a relationship where they eventually grow to resent each other.

And idk. Im honestly surprised this isn’t a more widespread assumption? That Jonathan is being cowardly for lying? But it isn’t? Posing Jonathan refusing to communicate with his girlfriend as noble while she has actively questioned his loyalty to her, seems kind of cruel to Nancy. Sure maybe she hasn’t communicated enough to him, but has he let her? He is making these assumptions and decisions that impact their future together and he doesn’t discuss it with her because he doesn’t want to ruin her life (or, more likely, either remain in a LDR or get broken up with, the latter seeming more likely every day he lies.) That seems cowardly to me.

[gamma-ghoul]

I'm so tempted to do a meta-analysis on how Stancy and Byler actually do parallel each other.

I found a scene in season one that does this when Mike and Nancy talk about El.

Nancy thought Mike was acting weird because of Will, and Mike thought Nancy was acting weird because of Steve.

And then they ask each other if they like Jonathan or El now, and then the two deny it.

And then by the end of season 2 both Mileven and Jancy are canon.

And then, in season 4, Mileven and Jancy start to have issues in their respective relationships and an alternative starts to creep up...

Honestly, though, you can find narrative parallels all over the series to support whatever ship you like.

[your-stranger-halfblood-things]

Steve: Third base is letting you bring me to the hospital when I have a concussion

Eddie:

Steve:

Robin: So you've never done third base? Ha

Eddie: HOW MANY CONCUSSIONS HAVE YOU HAD?

Steve:

Robin:

Jonathan: Third base for me is talking about my dad...

Nancy: So we...? Oh god no, I'm lesbian

Jonathan: Thanks

Argyle: Third base is if I tell you my secrets for my hair

Steve, blushing: You told me them before

Argyle *winks*

Nancy: Third base is letting you into my room and letting you look around

Robin: You let me do that!!

Nancy: No I didn't! You just did it without permission

Robin, shrugging: Anyways, third base for me is like probably me letting you pick my outfit

Nancy:

Nancy, blushing: Fuck you

Eddie: Third base is letting you touch my guitar

Steve: You don't even let me within five feet of it

Eddie: You're a clumsy man! I don't want you to hurt her!

[vanesawye]

great critique of season 3 jancy by jexonite

[clarkegriffins]

so, i think since s4 came out i saw maaaaaaaaaaaaaany posts saying nancy AND steve shouldn't be in a relationship, and i'm not gonna talk about that right now bc it's not my point, what is curious to me is that i never saw a post saying that jonathan shouldn't be in a relationship, and it got me thinking, does the fandom even listen to jonathan? like at all?

so in season 1 we have this scene:

which was supposed to "represent" stancy back then, even tho it's just assumptions since we never got the idea that stancy would ever be like ted and karen, they might had their problems back in season 1 and season 2 but not to the point that we think they would turn into nancy's parents, the show has been showing us how much steve loves nancy and that he would do literally anything for her, even breaking his own heart and letting her go, so no, not ted and karen at all, but i'm getting off topic let's go back to jonathan, this is what he thinks about nancy and steve's relationship, not very positive right? he scares her into thinking she's going to end up like her mom and how unhappy she will become.

and now we have this scene, present day:

now we're talking about his relationship with nancy, and oops, not very optimistic either right? this is basically what jonathan thinks of relationships, that no matter what they are always doomed, and how someone who thinks like that can be ready for a relationship? and i'm not even mentioning his thoughts about bob/joyce, his constant judgment over their relationship even tho bob was good for joyce, jonathan's beliefs about relationships are very tragic, i think not only about relationships, but life too, which leads to my second question: what can jonathan offer nancy? like really? i'm not talking about career or anything i'm talking about partnership, he's been ghosting nancy for a while now

to the point that she's considering he is cheating on her

just because he's too scared of telling her the truth, and i see people like: oh but he's protecting her bc just like he said "she would drop EVERYTHING to be with him" and i'm sorry but him assuming that she would leave her dream college for him is a bit too much for me, and it's crazy how no one talks about that, like nancy wheeler, our ambitious nancy wheeler, would literally drop her dreams just because jonathan is going to a different college? and no one from the fandom thinks it's a bit pretentious for jonathan to assume that? this is just an excuse for not telling her the truth, because if he told her the truth, it would lead him to also say what he thinks about their future together, which, in his opinion, is not a very bright future

and look at this, he also talks about kids and marriage, but for him it would end in a disaster, an unhappy marriage, just like ted and karen, totally different from what we saw in steve's dreams (a family with love, affection, who really enjoy each other's company, seeing the world with them, which, i think, it suits nancy traveling a lot since she wants to be a journalist) but this isn't about him, it's about jonathan, i see many people trying to say "oh but it's the trauma talking ok?" and yeah i could buy that, but i don't think trauma should excuse everything, so like nancy will have to spent her entire life fixing him? changing him? i think if u really want to be with someone you should fight for that, but that doesn't seem to be in jonathan's plans, right?

so again: how is he ready to be in a relationship? i think before anything jonathan should heal, this is what s5 should offer him.

[emilykinncy]

This video using Steve & Nancy as an example of positive 'consensual voyeurism' (she invites him to look at her take her shirt off) and the comments calling out what Jonathan did and that the show never addressed it properly 👏🏼👏🏼 "Unsettling implications" is so true, ST made a huge mistake including that scene if they wanted Jonathan to be a likable, underdog character and I hope how season 4 went indicates they are correcting their mistakes in having him "get the girl" after that nonsense. Nancy never should have dated him or even had anything but disdain for him in the first place. Meanwhile, they upped the creep factor when they brought Murray in to the plot forcing them together.

[ilovetwig]

It's so hot when men apologize for their mistakes without needing to be told and take accountability and don't make snarky comments or excuses in their apology and try to make things right and realize they shouldn't repeat the same mistakes. This is actually what makes Steve and Eddie so hot.

[dwobbitfromtheshire]

People have valid reasons for not liking Jonathan, honestly, and it's not to make Steve look good. Steve does all that on his own. (And yes, Steve was a great boyfriend.) They don't like Jonathan because he took a shirtless picture of Nancy without her consent while peaking on a very intimate moment between her and Steve. That's a very good reason not to like the character and a very good reason not to like Jancy. I waffle back and forth between my like and dislike of the character for this reason. Readmore for a better in-depth analysis.

If you want to blame anyone for people's dislike of Jonathan, blame the Duffle bags for not addressing the issue properly. All they really needed was a scene between Nancy and Jonathan, with Jonathan apologizing sincerely, then Jonathan returning the camera to Steve with an apology of his own, saying that he wanted to earn the camera back. There would have been this moment of respect between them with realizing they both did and said things that were fucked up. The difference is that Steve owned up first and apologized. Plus, there would have been this parallel scene of Steve going to Jonathan's house, and then Jonathan going to Steve’s house. It would have added so much to Jonathan's character. Getting mad at people for not liking Jonathan, it's dumb because they have valid and very sensitive reasons for not liking him. Get mad at the Duffle brothers for not addressing the issue properly. They had a chance to do a great scene between the three of them, and they just missed it. I really hope they address it in season 5.

[huntingpeople-savingsam]

Okay so, I don’t know why this is speaking to me now but rewatching this specific scene, where Jonathan says to Nancy at the end of season 4 after both of them going through their respective season’s ordeals,

“Sorry I wasn’t here.”

He says this not because Fred died (so similar to how Barb did), not because he wanted to be there with her during Spring Break, not because he wanted to follow her journalistic hunches straight into Vecna’s childhood home, not even because Vecna tried to come for Nancy and could’ve killed her the same as the others, but because he felt guilty he wasn’t there when the Upside Down, and the entities that had taken Will, came for the people of Hawkins, with Nancy included.

It’s not that Jonathan wouldn’t have cared if Vecna or anything from the Upside Down had hurt or killed Nancy, of course he would, but Nancy in mourning? Nope. Nancy with her detective brain leading her into danger? Not willingly. Nancy being forced to confront the feelings of guilt she’s never been able to address or overcome during her entire relationship with Jonathan? Hell no.

Jonathan, bless his soul, has sadly dedicated his whole life to one thing; protecting his family and by extension, himself from the hurt of being helpless to save them. Nancy he cared for, she had similar goals to him, but she’s not a priority to him now, and frankly, she never really was.

I think this scene jumped out to me so much because he says this semi unprompted while he and Nancy are in the middle of an awkward silence together, and the response he gets is not necessarily one I think he expects either:

“To be honest, I’m kind of glad you weren’t.”

And that begs the question, what did Nancy mean by that.

She has her quick cover, but it’s clear that she meant what she’s been saying for the last two (yes, two, because it didn’t just start in season 4) seasons, that when Nancy needs Jonathan, he isn’t there.

In season 3, we first see it when Jonathan and Nancy start having arguments about work, Jonathan not supporting or defending Nancy with their sexist bosses, Nancy’s hunches jeopardizing her and Jonathan’s jobs when Jonathan needs the opportunity more than she does, etc. etc. etc.

But we see it, the same as they both admit even then:

“I guess we just don’t understand each other anymore.”

“I guess not.”

And going into season 4, we see the same thing. At the start of the season, Nancy is complaining to Fred about Jonathan not coming to Hawkins for Spring Break and not committing to going to the same college as her in the Fall so they’d be together again, and she’s clearly annoyed and when she has a journalistic hunch, she only has her friend Fred to follow her (which she sadly later regrets).

Meanwhile Jonathan is complaining to Argyle that he doesn’t want the same thing as Nancy but he doesn’t know how to tell her. He doesn’t want to keep lying to her but he doesn’t want to tell her the truth and risk her giving everything up to be with him (which he wouldn’t do for her, can you imagine him leaving Will behind for Nancy?). And it’s absolutely fine that Jonathan is realizing that he doesn’t want the same thing anymore and that the relationship isn’t working anymore, but Argyle said it best:

“What was I supposed to do?”

“Not lie!”

So when Jonathan says in this episode that he’s sorry he wasn’t there with Nancy while her and the kids and Robin and Steve are dealing with Vecna, and Jonathan and Will and Argyle and Mike are tracking down Eleven and running for their lives from the shady government ops guys, is he really telling the truth?

Would he rather have been with Nancy, following her hunches, letting her lead them into danger to find the truth, and being there for her when her guilt overwhelmed her?

Would he have rather done any of those things which he has a history of not doing, than be where he was, protecting and being with his family and the one friend he’s had that he could have alongside his family while out of harm’s way up until this point?

I don’t know that he would.

[avengers-rule103]

what disconfort actually looks like

vs what some of y'all think discomfort looks like 😂